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	<title>Comments on: Forget swimming pools and bra hunts, it&#8217;s time for the Great Intern Debate</title>
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	<link>https://oxfamblogs.org/fp2p/forget-swimming-pools-and-bra-hunts-its-time-for-the-great-intern-debate/</link>
	<description>How active citizens and effective states can change the world</description>
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		<title>By: Jane</title>
		<link>https://oxfamblogs.org/fp2p/forget-swimming-pools-and-bra-hunts-its-time-for-the-great-intern-debate/#comment-4576</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jane]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Jun 2013 01:29:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.oxfamblogs.org/fp2p/?p=12992#comment-4576</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[A US court ruling to add to the great intern debate:

&quot;The new precedent clarifies how employers can meet six criteria that the FLSA says make it okay to use young people as workers without pay. &quot;If you&#039;re going to not pay you&#039;re interns, it&#039;s a pretty high bar,&quot; Turner said. The law states that unpaid internships must benefit the worker, not the employer, and should be a part of a formal training program, without replacing a paid employee&#039;s job.&quot;

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2013/06/black-swan-intern-ruling/66168/]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A US court ruling to add to the great intern debate:</p>
<p>&#8220;The new precedent clarifies how employers can meet six criteria that the FLSA says make it okay to use young people as workers without pay. &#8220;If you&#8217;re going to not pay you&#8217;re interns, it&#8217;s a pretty high bar,&#8221; Turner said. The law states that unpaid internships must benefit the worker, not the employer, and should be a part of a formal training program, without replacing a paid employee&#8217;s job.&#8221;</p>
<p><a href="http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2013/06/black-swan-intern-ruling/66168/" rel="nofollow">http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2013/06/black-swan-intern-ruling/66168/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Loz4</title>
		<link>https://oxfamblogs.org/fp2p/forget-swimming-pools-and-bra-hunts-its-time-for-the-great-intern-debate/#comment-4575</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Loz4]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Dec 2012 12:02:05 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Just a few comments to add to the debate..

After undertaking an unpaid internship, a friend has now found a job, however as an administrative assistant, which gives him a lot less responsibility, variation in the role and skills development. He said &#039;It&#039;s like taking a step back, but at least it&#039;s paid.&#039; 

How is it that interns are taking on more responsibility than paid positions?

After my personal experience as an unpaid intern, I am now feeling disillusioned. Even though I had the best team and manager, and have taken on some fantastic projects, I did find myself at times feeling worthless and exploited - especially as at points I was running the show myself! I now have some good skills and have developed professionally, but due to lack of capacity, there was a distinct absence of structure and training.

Although I can afford it, I have now decided that I will not apply for an unpaid internship again out of principle. I have realised I am part of the problem, and by accepting unpaid internship I am adhering to the inequality that the system creates. NGO&#039;s should not have unpaid interns as part of their business model - &#039;equality&#039;, &#039;diversity&#039; are core values in most NGO&#039;s. Paying interns would be one step towards actually practising these values.

As a last note, I am currently applying to NGO internships in Brussels, the Netherlands and other EU countries, because, at least for the one&#039;s i&#039;ve seen, there is more chance of being paid a living wage.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just a few comments to add to the debate..</p>
<p>After undertaking an unpaid internship, a friend has now found a job, however as an administrative assistant, which gives him a lot less responsibility, variation in the role and skills development. He said &#8216;It&#8217;s like taking a step back, but at least it&#8217;s paid.&#8217; </p>
<p>How is it that interns are taking on more responsibility than paid positions?</p>
<p>After my personal experience as an unpaid intern, I am now feeling disillusioned. Even though I had the best team and manager, and have taken on some fantastic projects, I did find myself at times feeling worthless and exploited &#8211; especially as at points I was running the show myself! I now have some good skills and have developed professionally, but due to lack of capacity, there was a distinct absence of structure and training.</p>
<p>Although I can afford it, I have now decided that I will not apply for an unpaid internship again out of principle. I have realised I am part of the problem, and by accepting unpaid internship I am adhering to the inequality that the system creates. NGO&#8217;s should not have unpaid interns as part of their business model &#8211; &#8216;equality&#8217;, &#8216;diversity&#8217; are core values in most NGO&#8217;s. Paying interns would be one step towards actually practising these values.</p>
<p>As a last note, I am currently applying to NGO internships in Brussels, the Netherlands and other EU countries, because, at least for the one&#8217;s i&#8217;ve seen, there is more chance of being paid a living wage.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Clough</title>
		<link>https://oxfamblogs.org/fp2p/forget-swimming-pools-and-bra-hunts-its-time-for-the-great-intern-debate/#comment-4574</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul Clough]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Dec 2012 09:45:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.oxfamblogs.org/fp2p/?p=12992#comment-4574</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think paying interns would affect the background of the interns - eg at IPPR (who pay interns) they have found that the background of the interns they now recruit are predominantly from state schools.  And they&#039;re really good!

So from a fairness, diversity but also a quality perspective surely paying interns is the right choice.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think paying interns would affect the background of the interns &#8211; eg at IPPR (who pay interns) they have found that the background of the interns they now recruit are predominantly from state schools.  And they&#8217;re really good!</p>
<p>So from a fairness, diversity but also a quality perspective surely paying interns is the right choice.</p>
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		<title>By: Ken Smith</title>
		<link>https://oxfamblogs.org/fp2p/forget-swimming-pools-and-bra-hunts-its-time-for-the-great-intern-debate/#comment-4573</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ken Smith]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Dec 2012 08:29:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.oxfamblogs.org/fp2p/?p=12992#comment-4573</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Just looking at how the vote is going. How do you think the vote would go if you asked this question of aid donors or taxpayers ? If you think it would be different - does it matter ?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just looking at how the vote is going. How do you think the vote would go if you asked this question of aid donors or taxpayers ? If you think it would be different &#8211; does it matter ?</p>
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		<title>By: Mooshy</title>
		<link>https://oxfamblogs.org/fp2p/forget-swimming-pools-and-bra-hunts-its-time-for-the-great-intern-debate/#comment-4572</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mooshy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Dec 2012 10:02:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.oxfamblogs.org/fp2p/?p=12992#comment-4572</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I started my career as a unpaid intern, in the early 1990s. I&#039;m not from the social/economic elite in the UK, although I had an elitist British university education. This is the crux of the issue - even organisations focussed on social and economic justice are unable/unwilling to break the bonds of a highly entrenched class system and promote social mobility. This whole debate is being fluffed up with arguments and counter-arguments, when at its core, everybody knows the internship system is unfair. The international development sector in the UK, almost 20 years since I had my first job, is still full of appointments of friends and friend-of-friends. And this is for paid work. It was enough for me to run away from it all. I now run a consultancy practice on the African continent, where we hire paid interns.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I started my career as a unpaid intern, in the early 1990s. I&#8217;m not from the social/economic elite in the UK, although I had an elitist British university education. This is the crux of the issue &#8211; even organisations focussed on social and economic justice are unable/unwilling to break the bonds of a highly entrenched class system and promote social mobility. This whole debate is being fluffed up with arguments and counter-arguments, when at its core, everybody knows the internship system is unfair. The international development sector in the UK, almost 20 years since I had my first job, is still full of appointments of friends and friend-of-friends. And this is for paid work. It was enough for me to run away from it all. I now run a consultancy practice on the African continent, where we hire paid interns.</p>
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		<title>By: NoPay?NoWay!</title>
		<link>https://oxfamblogs.org/fp2p/forget-swimming-pools-and-bra-hunts-its-time-for-the-great-intern-debate/#comment-4571</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[NoPay?NoWay!]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Dec 2012 10:19:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.oxfamblogs.org/fp2p/?p=12992#comment-4571</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks Duncan for the blog post and providing the space to debate.

Your blog post is a good start but it ignores some fundamental things:

First on your pro-unpaid-intern-arguments:

- Are they really educating/training people? Or just using them as cheap labour? As Sara pointed out: many internship programmes actually fail to train! A proper contract, regulations on what work an intern is supposed to do and transparency are needed!

- Interestingly, research in the US has shown that unpaid internships very seldomly lead to a job, while paid internships are a push up the career ledder (http://www.epi.org/blog/unpaid-internships-scourge-labor-market/#)

- There are not enough jobs in the charity sector and entry level positions are becoming structurally erased - replaced by unpaid internships. So what is the point of offering more internship places which do not train and do not lead to a job? We do not need quantity but quality! Pay your interns, train them and help them to find a job! 

Secondly, on the point of diversity: yes you are right much more needs to be done for diversity than just paying interns. But we cannot justify this boundry by others (eg, skyrocketing tution fees)! Stopping unpaid internships is a step towards diversity we can do now.

Lastly: Yes Ross Bailey is right there is an alternative to unpaid internships and this is called distribution. If Oxfam turely believes in its own principles it should implement a graded pay cut. Oxfams director earns over 100.000 annually! Is this justified while making interns work for free?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Duncan for the blog post and providing the space to debate.</p>
<p>Your blog post is a good start but it ignores some fundamental things:</p>
<p>First on your pro-unpaid-intern-arguments:</p>
<p>&#8211; Are they really educating/training people? Or just using them as cheap labour? As Sara pointed out: many internship programmes actually fail to train! A proper contract, regulations on what work an intern is supposed to do and transparency are needed!</p>
<p>&#8211; Interestingly, research in the US has shown that unpaid internships very seldomly lead to a job, while paid internships are a push up the career ledder (<a href="http://www.epi.org/blog/unpaid-internships-scourge-labor-market/#" rel="nofollow">http://www.epi.org/blog/unpaid-internships-scourge-labor-market/#</a>)</p>
<p>&#8211; There are not enough jobs in the charity sector and entry level positions are becoming structurally erased &#8211; replaced by unpaid internships. So what is the point of offering more internship places which do not train and do not lead to a job? We do not need quantity but quality! Pay your interns, train them and help them to find a job! </p>
<p>Secondly, on the point of diversity: yes you are right much more needs to be done for diversity than just paying interns. But we cannot justify this boundry by others (eg, skyrocketing tution fees)! Stopping unpaid internships is a step towards diversity we can do now.</p>
<p>Lastly: Yes Ross Bailey is right there is an alternative to unpaid internships and this is called distribution. If Oxfam turely believes in its own principles it should implement a graded pay cut. Oxfams director earns over 100.000 annually! Is this justified while making interns work for free?</p>
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		<title>By: msksquared</title>
		<link>https://oxfamblogs.org/fp2p/forget-swimming-pools-and-bra-hunts-its-time-for-the-great-intern-debate/#comment-4570</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[msksquared]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Dec 2012 10:18:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.oxfamblogs.org/fp2p/?p=12992#comment-4570</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think the UK should take a look at how this works in other countries. In Germany you can hire a student assistant who is allowed to work a certain number of hours per week, at a fixed wage, for a fixed period of time. They just have to be able to prove that they are enrolled in education. The system is set up to ensure that the student&#039;s tax and insurance status is protected; they get some pay; the employer has minimal costs beyond the salary and no long-term obligations. Legally the student assistants have to be employed for a defined task, so employers need to have thought about job content before hiring. 

In my organization we typically get quite diverse applicants, most of whom really need to earn the money to supplement their grants etc.  

Also interesting to note that these days the elite applicants who can self-fund are increasingly likely to be Indian or Latin American - so you can have an intern programme that is culturally and ethnically diverse but still highly elite.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the UK should take a look at how this works in other countries. In Germany you can hire a student assistant who is allowed to work a certain number of hours per week, at a fixed wage, for a fixed period of time. They just have to be able to prove that they are enrolled in education. The system is set up to ensure that the student&#8217;s tax and insurance status is protected; they get some pay; the employer has minimal costs beyond the salary and no long-term obligations. Legally the student assistants have to be employed for a defined task, so employers need to have thought about job content before hiring. </p>
<p>In my organization we typically get quite diverse applicants, most of whom really need to earn the money to supplement their grants etc.  </p>
<p>Also interesting to note that these days the elite applicants who can self-fund are increasingly likely to be Indian or Latin American &#8211; so you can have an intern programme that is culturally and ethnically diverse but still highly elite.</p>
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		<title>By: Hannah</title>
		<link>https://oxfamblogs.org/fp2p/forget-swimming-pools-and-bra-hunts-its-time-for-the-great-intern-debate/#comment-4569</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Hannah]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Dec 2012 09:10:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.oxfamblogs.org/fp2p/?p=12992#comment-4569</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It&#039;s excellent that you are launching this debate, especially as Oxfam offers both paid and unpaid internships depending on where the office is located (which is interesting as it indicates that offering unpaid internships in this case is not an ethical/pecuniary question but rather one of following the minimum standards of a country&#039;s employment law!)... however you don&#039;t consider the inverse ethical question, i.e. the effect internships (both UNDERpaid or unpaid) have on jobs... I have seen several examples of people&#039;s contracts finishing and the post suddenly becoming an internship rather than a real job. This indicates either that interns are valuable (and so should be paid accordingly) or that the job in the first place could have been done by an intern! I think this also reflects the debate on low-paid women&#039;s work that took place at the beginning of the twentieth century.. the trade unions fought for equal pay not because they were particularly concerned about women&#039;s rights but because they didn&#039;t want men to be replaced by a cheaper supply of labour. Perhaps we need a repeat of this interest-based fight for equality? On the whole, I agree that as an entry point internships are a useful step in the career ladder, but all too often they are no longer an &#039;entry point&#039;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s excellent that you are launching this debate, especially as Oxfam offers both paid and unpaid internships depending on where the office is located (which is interesting as it indicates that offering unpaid internships in this case is not an ethical/pecuniary question but rather one of following the minimum standards of a country&#8217;s employment law!)&#8230; however you don&#8217;t consider the inverse ethical question, i.e. the effect internships (both UNDERpaid or unpaid) have on jobs&#8230; I have seen several examples of people&#8217;s contracts finishing and the post suddenly becoming an internship rather than a real job. This indicates either that interns are valuable (and so should be paid accordingly) or that the job in the first place could have been done by an intern! I think this also reflects the debate on low-paid women&#8217;s work that took place at the beginning of the twentieth century.. the trade unions fought for equal pay not because they were particularly concerned about women&#8217;s rights but because they didn&#8217;t want men to be replaced by a cheaper supply of labour. Perhaps we need a repeat of this interest-based fight for equality? On the whole, I agree that as an entry point internships are a useful step in the career ladder, but all too often they are no longer an &#8216;entry point&#8217;.</p>
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		<title>By: aidnography</title>
		<link>https://oxfamblogs.org/fp2p/forget-swimming-pools-and-bra-hunts-its-time-for-the-great-intern-debate/#comment-4568</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[aidnography]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Dec 2012 18:59:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.oxfamblogs.org/fp2p/?p=12992#comment-4568</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think that there are two elephants in the &#039;internship&#039; room...The first is the shortage of jobs in development while universities keep educating more and more graduates; they other is that many organisations in the &#039;development industry&#039; pretend that they are not part of an &#039;industry&#039;, but rather of something more worthwhile, charitable etc. Many labour markets also show that the transition from unpaid/volunteer etc. to full-time staff is more of a fantasy of politicians than an economic reality. I wonder whether there is actually some evidence from the &#039;development industry&#039; (and a 3months contract/consultancy as a &#039;reward&#039; after the internship doesn&#039;t count!). And finally, just like in other sectors (e.g. doing a PhD in academia) there are not just the cost of paid/unpaid work, but also the loss of income. Even if the think in minimum wage terms, a 6 months fulltime internship can easily be a loss of 10-12k of income elsewhere-and many careers in development do not let you catch up that easily as salaries traditionally remain relatively modest. So unpaid internships are a bad deal. But I also think organisations need to think more outside the box: More desk-base/homebased work to reduce travel expenses and enable more flexible schedules (there are all sorts of downsides for not being physically present in the office). Being brutally honest about the chances of subsequent  paid employment. In addition to providing training, dedicate staff time to career advice-even if that means helping a good intern to work for the &#039;competition&#039;. Allow time for open, reflective writing, kind of a &#039;fail fare&#039; for interns: Tell &#039;us&#039; what didn&#039;t work, what you didn&#039;t learn etc. Maybe third party (research institute, blogger etc) could collect stories as a kind of &#039;ombuds person&#039;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that there are two elephants in the &#8216;internship&#8217; room&#8230;The first is the shortage of jobs in development while universities keep educating more and more graduates; they other is that many organisations in the &#8216;development industry&#8217; pretend that they are not part of an &#8216;industry&#8217;, but rather of something more worthwhile, charitable etc. Many labour markets also show that the transition from unpaid/volunteer etc. to full-time staff is more of a fantasy of politicians than an economic reality. I wonder whether there is actually some evidence from the &#8216;development industry&#8217; (and a 3months contract/consultancy as a &#8216;reward&#8217; after the internship doesn&#8217;t count!). And finally, just like in other sectors (e.g. doing a PhD in academia) there are not just the cost of paid/unpaid work, but also the loss of income. Even if the think in minimum wage terms, a 6 months fulltime internship can easily be a loss of 10-12k of income elsewhere-and many careers in development do not let you catch up that easily as salaries traditionally remain relatively modest. So unpaid internships are a bad deal. But I also think organisations need to think more outside the box: More desk-base/homebased work to reduce travel expenses and enable more flexible schedules (there are all sorts of downsides for not being physically present in the office). Being brutally honest about the chances of subsequent  paid employment. In addition to providing training, dedicate staff time to career advice-even if that means helping a good intern to work for the &#8216;competition&#8217;. Allow time for open, reflective writing, kind of a &#8216;fail fare&#8217; for interns: Tell &#8216;us&#8217; what didn&#8217;t work, what you didn&#8217;t learn etc. Maybe third party (research institute, blogger etc) could collect stories as a kind of &#8216;ombuds person&#8217;.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>https://oxfamblogs.org/fp2p/forget-swimming-pools-and-bra-hunts-its-time-for-the-great-intern-debate/#comment-4567</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Dec 2012 17:42:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.oxfamblogs.org/fp2p/?p=12992#comment-4567</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[As a recent graduate of a master&#039;s program in international development, I spent a year interning at an INGO HQ office in the US, and two summers with the INGO overseas (in two separate country offices).  While I&#039;m grateful for the experiences (which I believe led to a great job upon graduation), I think it&#039;s important to look at the value that interns are adding to INGOs and whether their work has sufficient impact to make it worth the investment and resources required to host interns.   

In the internships mentioned above, the NGO staff were too stretched to provide sufficient training and feedback to keep me engaged.  So, I spent a substantial amount of time surfing the internet or doing research that was not utilized.  In addition, because these internships were short-term, there was no one there to follow through on my deliverables or recommendations after the internship ended.  

So, while I value my experiences because they were well aligned with my graduate curriculum and professional aspirations, I&#039;m not confident that my investment or the investment of the organization contributed to furthering their mission.  

As an alternative, it would be interesting to explore the possibility of internships being more focused on job shadowing and observation, so that students/interns can build their skill set while not drawing too heavily on limited organizational/staff resources.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a recent graduate of a master&#8217;s program in international development, I spent a year interning at an INGO HQ office in the US, and two summers with the INGO overseas (in two separate country offices).  While I&#8217;m grateful for the experiences (which I believe led to a great job upon graduation), I think it&#8217;s important to look at the value that interns are adding to INGOs and whether their work has sufficient impact to make it worth the investment and resources required to host interns.   </p>
<p>In the internships mentioned above, the NGO staff were too stretched to provide sufficient training and feedback to keep me engaged.  So, I spent a substantial amount of time surfing the internet or doing research that was not utilized.  In addition, because these internships were short-term, there was no one there to follow through on my deliverables or recommendations after the internship ended.  </p>
<p>So, while I value my experiences because they were well aligned with my graduate curriculum and professional aspirations, I&#8217;m not confident that my investment or the investment of the organization contributed to furthering their mission.  </p>
<p>As an alternative, it would be interesting to explore the possibility of internships being more focused on job shadowing and observation, so that students/interns can build their skill set while not drawing too heavily on limited organizational/staff resources.</p>
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