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	<title>Comments on: Waiting for Superman in Lahore: do poor people need private schools? Guest post by Justin Sandefur</title>
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	<link>https://oxfamblogs.org/fp2p/waiting-for-superman-in-lahore-do-poor-people-need-private-schools-guest-post-by-justin-sandefur/</link>
	<description>How active citizens and effective states can change the world</description>
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		<title>By: James Stanfield</title>
		<link>https://oxfamblogs.org/fp2p/waiting-for-superman-in-lahore-do-poor-people-need-private-schools-guest-post-by-justin-sandefur/#comment-3939</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[James Stanfield]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Aug 2012 13:56:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.oxfamblogs.org/fp2p/?p=11047#comment-3939</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@Max.  But I still dont understand why there is still this fanatical obsession with government schools.  I understand the arguments for government funding but not for government provision.  You say that you need to have evidence that freedom works in education.  Does this also apply to freedom in religion, freedom of speech, freedom of the press and the freedom to choose which government you want?  You suggest that &quot;It really is time to move on from this largely theoretical and ideological view that in essential services private is good, and public bad&quot;.  I entirely agree but you then contradict yourself by adopting an equally idelogical position of private bad, public good.  Why not simply work to help improve all schools, both public and private?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Max.  But I still dont understand why there is still this fanatical obsession with government schools.  I understand the arguments for government funding but not for government provision.  You say that you need to have evidence that freedom works in education.  Does this also apply to freedom in religion, freedom of speech, freedom of the press and the freedom to choose which government you want?  You suggest that &#8220;It really is time to move on from this largely theoretical and ideological view that in essential services private is good, and public bad&#8221;.  I entirely agree but you then contradict yourself by adopting an equally idelogical position of private bad, public good.  Why not simply work to help improve all schools, both public and private?</p>
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		<title>By: max lawson</title>
		<link>https://oxfamblogs.org/fp2p/waiting-for-superman-in-lahore-do-poor-people-need-private-schools-guest-post-by-justin-sandefur/#comment-3938</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[max lawson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jul 2012 11:41:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.oxfamblogs.org/fp2p/?p=11047#comment-3938</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This is a fascinating debate, many thanks to Duncan, Justin and Kevin.

For me this is simply a burden of proof argument.  Publicly provided, free schooling has been at the heart of the vast majority of successful development stories. Advocates of low cost private provision are asking us to break with the evidence of history and embark on a deeply unproven and risky alternative using public money.  The significant burden of proof is on them.

There has been a huge increase across Africa since 2000 in public investment in  Education, often spurred by debt relief.  This money has led to millions more going to school. Kenya is often used as a proxy for Africa, perhaps because it is so easy to reach for commentators, so I would also like to underline the many other countries in Africa who have made huge strides in educating their children, from Burkina Faso to Mozambique.

We should be celebrating this massive increase in access, and then working even harder to address the quality challenge.  This means more than anything more teachers, better paid.  Nothing improves education quality more than the quality of the teaching.  Yet teacher salaries and conditions are something that donors have constantly sought to attack rather than support. Thank god for debt relief, government action and budget support which has helped redress this.

There are a set of theoretical assumptions in the pro-private argument that are unproven. That choice can be real for poor people.  That choice does in fact increase accountability. That willingness to pay is the same as ability to pay, not a reflection of poor parents desperation.

The standards the pro-private lobby hold the public sector to are not applied to the private. Corruption, power and patronage are hardly unique to the public sector for example- ask Bob Diamond. Neither is regressive  incidence. Teacher quality is as much of an issue.  At the same time a huge burden of regulation is assumed. The same government that cannot apparently provide services due to its inherent and intractable weakness can nevertheless be relied upon to actively monitor and regulate a multiplicity of public providers to ensure that children get quality education.

It really is time to move on from this largely theoretical and ideological view that in essential services private is good, and public bad.  Lets get on with rapidly increasing the quality of free public education for the huge numbers of children who are getting to go to school for the first time.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a fascinating debate, many thanks to Duncan, Justin and Kevin.</p>
<p>For me this is simply a burden of proof argument.  Publicly provided, free schooling has been at the heart of the vast majority of successful development stories. Advocates of low cost private provision are asking us to break with the evidence of history and embark on a deeply unproven and risky alternative using public money.  The significant burden of proof is on them.</p>
<p>There has been a huge increase across Africa since 2000 in public investment in  Education, often spurred by debt relief.  This money has led to millions more going to school. Kenya is often used as a proxy for Africa, perhaps because it is so easy to reach for commentators, so I would also like to underline the many other countries in Africa who have made huge strides in educating their children, from Burkina Faso to Mozambique.</p>
<p>We should be celebrating this massive increase in access, and then working even harder to address the quality challenge.  This means more than anything more teachers, better paid.  Nothing improves education quality more than the quality of the teaching.  Yet teacher salaries and conditions are something that donors have constantly sought to attack rather than support. Thank god for debt relief, government action and budget support which has helped redress this.</p>
<p>There are a set of theoretical assumptions in the pro-private argument that are unproven. That choice can be real for poor people.  That choice does in fact increase accountability. That willingness to pay is the same as ability to pay, not a reflection of poor parents desperation.</p>
<p>The standards the pro-private lobby hold the public sector to are not applied to the private. Corruption, power and patronage are hardly unique to the public sector for example- ask Bob Diamond. Neither is regressive  incidence. Teacher quality is as much of an issue.  At the same time a huge burden of regulation is assumed. The same government that cannot apparently provide services due to its inherent and intractable weakness can nevertheless be relied upon to actively monitor and regulate a multiplicity of public providers to ensure that children get quality education.</p>
<p>It really is time to move on from this largely theoretical and ideological view that in essential services private is good, and public bad.  Lets get on with rapidly increasing the quality of free public education for the huge numbers of children who are getting to go to school for the first time.</p>
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		<title>By: Allan Findlay</title>
		<link>https://oxfamblogs.org/fp2p/waiting-for-superman-in-lahore-do-poor-people-need-private-schools-guest-post-by-justin-sandefur/#comment-3937</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Allan Findlay]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jul 2012 13:43:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.oxfamblogs.org/fp2p/?p=11047#comment-3937</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The people are already voting on this debate and more and more choosing Private. In Lagos there are less than 1,000 public primary and pre primary and over 10,000 private schools.

The majority of the growth in school population numbers are being catered for by the private sector. Already over 65% of pre and pry are going Private with the majority low cost ($30 - $60 per term).

When it comes to quality of education and teacher qualitywe are not seeing much difference but a lot more testing to do.

When it comes down to regulation the majority are unapproved seeing approval = taxation and unrealistic requirements like provision of science labs. To my mind we have to get the environment right so quality low cost private schooling can assist in the massive challenge of educating the children of the developing world. It is already happening in a big way - we need to ensure quality education whereever it happens.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The people are already voting on this debate and more and more choosing Private. In Lagos there are less than 1,000 public primary and pre primary and over 10,000 private schools.</p>
<p>The majority of the growth in school population numbers are being catered for by the private sector. Already over 65% of pre and pry are going Private with the majority low cost ($30 &#8211; $60 per term).</p>
<p>When it comes to quality of education and teacher qualitywe are not seeing much difference but a lot more testing to do.</p>
<p>When it comes down to regulation the majority are unapproved seeing approval = taxation and unrealistic requirements like provision of science labs. To my mind we have to get the environment right so quality low cost private schooling can assist in the massive challenge of educating the children of the developing world. It is already happening in a big way &#8211; we need to ensure quality education whereever it happens.</p>
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		<title>By: James Stanfield</title>
		<link>https://oxfamblogs.org/fp2p/waiting-for-superman-in-lahore-do-poor-people-need-private-schools-guest-post-by-justin-sandefur/#comment-3936</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[James Stanfield]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Jul 2012 12:14:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.oxfamblogs.org/fp2p/?p=11047#comment-3936</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I wonder, for those who want to force parents to attend a government school, how long do they envsage parents having to wait until their local government school is providing a quality service?  Is it 5, 20 or 100 years?  Or perhaps you expect them to wait indefinately?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder, for those who want to force parents to attend a government school, how long do they envsage parents having to wait until their local government school is providing a quality service?  Is it 5, 20 or 100 years?  Or perhaps you expect them to wait indefinately?</p>
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		<title>By: Boaz WARUKU</title>
		<link>https://oxfamblogs.org/fp2p/waiting-for-superman-in-lahore-do-poor-people-need-private-schools-guest-post-by-justin-sandefur/#comment-3935</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Boaz WARUKU]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jul 2012 15:11:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.oxfamblogs.org/fp2p/?p=11047#comment-3935</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[What Justin calls Myth #1 is not a myth but a reality. I would ask what the alternative would be! Children in forced labour, exploited without even the slightest knowledge of how to empower themselves? In Kenya, we advocated for (and still continue to push for) universal access for everyone; girls and boys, children with disabilities, children from nomadic communities, those bearing the greatest brunt of poverty (inflicted on them coz they were never born poor). When they are not in school, you can not even start to measure whether they are learning. The second greatest PUSH has been quality. Yes, there are challenges, but they are part of the teething problem. With Devolution coming in, more and more public resources are now being directed to provide for quality enablers; more and motivated teachers (20,000 to be hired by end of this year alone), curriculum review on-going, teaching and learning materials, etc. The alternative is not to ask the already highly taxed parents, struggling to eke out a living, to dig deeper into their pockets for additional funding (private sponsorship). Why do we pay high taxes if they can not be used to render quality public education for all its populce?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What Justin calls Myth #1 is not a myth but a reality. I would ask what the alternative would be! Children in forced labour, exploited without even the slightest knowledge of how to empower themselves? In Kenya, we advocated for (and still continue to push for) universal access for everyone; girls and boys, children with disabilities, children from nomadic communities, those bearing the greatest brunt of poverty (inflicted on them coz they were never born poor). When they are not in school, you can not even start to measure whether they are learning. The second greatest PUSH has been quality. Yes, there are challenges, but they are part of the teething problem. With Devolution coming in, more and more public resources are now being directed to provide for quality enablers; more and motivated teachers (20,000 to be hired by end of this year alone), curriculum review on-going, teaching and learning materials, etc. The alternative is not to ask the already highly taxed parents, struggling to eke out a living, to dig deeper into their pockets for additional funding (private sponsorship). Why do we pay high taxes if they can not be used to render quality public education for all its populce?</p>
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		<title>By: David Taylor</title>
		<link>https://oxfamblogs.org/fp2p/waiting-for-superman-in-lahore-do-poor-people-need-private-schools-guest-post-by-justin-sandefur/#comment-3934</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David Taylor]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jul 2012 13:35:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.oxfamblogs.org/fp2p/?p=11047#comment-3934</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The fact that millions of poor people are sending their children to low fee education providers is well known. As Kevin Watkins says, this is a symptom of state failure. Justin Sandefur wants to institutionalize that failure by promoting the growth of low fee school. This is a return to user-fee financing by another name. Non-government organizations campaigned against this approach during the Jubilee mobilization. Why have they gone so quiet now?

Here’s another question. DfID says that it costs poor households an average of £30 a year to send a child to a low-fee school in Kenya. Low fee? This is a country where half of the population is living on under US$1.25 a day. So an average family in an urban slum would need to spend one-fifth of their paltry income to send two kids to school, before paying for books and uniforms.

Justin’s approach would leave poor families facing some stark dilemmas. Which of my kids should I send to school? Do I pay for school costs or for treating a case of malaria?

Sorry, but is this what progressive financing is supposed to look like in the 21st Century.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The fact that millions of poor people are sending their children to low fee education providers is well known. As Kevin Watkins says, this is a symptom of state failure. Justin Sandefur wants to institutionalize that failure by promoting the growth of low fee school. This is a return to user-fee financing by another name. Non-government organizations campaigned against this approach during the Jubilee mobilization. Why have they gone so quiet now?</p>
<p>Here’s another question. DfID says that it costs poor households an average of £30 a year to send a child to a low-fee school in Kenya. Low fee? This is a country where half of the population is living on under US$1.25 a day. So an average family in an urban slum would need to spend one-fifth of their paltry income to send two kids to school, before paying for books and uniforms.</p>
<p>Justin’s approach would leave poor families facing some stark dilemmas. Which of my kids should I send to school? Do I pay for school costs or for treating a case of malaria?</p>
<p>Sorry, but is this what progressive financing is supposed to look like in the 21st Century.</p>
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		<title>By: kwame nkrumah</title>
		<link>https://oxfamblogs.org/fp2p/waiting-for-superman-in-lahore-do-poor-people-need-private-schools-guest-post-by-justin-sandefur/#comment-3933</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[kwame nkrumah]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jul 2012 12:39:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.oxfamblogs.org/fp2p/?p=11047#comment-3933</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think Ruth has dealt with Justin&#039;s comments brilliantly.

I think to start from a logic of supposed public failure meaning the only option is that we have to give up and go private is the big problem here. Instead problems in the public sector should lead to pressure to improve public provision. For the poorest people, there is no short cut to making the public sector deliver quality education for all, as the history of all our countries shows. Ten years ago huge numbers of poor kenyan children did not go to school at all.  Now they do. The majority of those out of school were girls. Now they get a chance to read and write. But many don&#039;t.  (Justin I have to say that these children, and no children should ever be alluded to as &#039;garbage&#039; by the way!).  This is clearly an argument for improving the public sector not sidelining it. And the huge pressure to improve quality is because of free primary education, which is now a right not a priviledge.

Where I do agree with Justin is that the UK attitudes to private schooling are having an impact here- but not in the way he suggests. It is directly linked to DFID discovering a new found passion for private schooling. The UK government of the day has a huge ideological predisposition towards this, and the minister and the majority of the goverment all went to high class private school themselves.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Ruth has dealt with Justin&#8217;s comments brilliantly.</p>
<p>I think to start from a logic of supposed public failure meaning the only option is that we have to give up and go private is the big problem here. Instead problems in the public sector should lead to pressure to improve public provision. For the poorest people, there is no short cut to making the public sector deliver quality education for all, as the history of all our countries shows. Ten years ago huge numbers of poor kenyan children did not go to school at all.  Now they do. The majority of those out of school were girls. Now they get a chance to read and write. But many don&#8217;t.  (Justin I have to say that these children, and no children should ever be alluded to as &#8216;garbage&#8217; by the way!).  This is clearly an argument for improving the public sector not sidelining it. And the huge pressure to improve quality is because of free primary education, which is now a right not a priviledge.</p>
<p>Where I do agree with Justin is that the UK attitudes to private schooling are having an impact here- but not in the way he suggests. It is directly linked to DFID discovering a new found passion for private schooling. The UK government of the day has a huge ideological predisposition towards this, and the minister and the majority of the goverment all went to high class private school themselves.</p>
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		<title>By: John McLaverty</title>
		<link>https://oxfamblogs.org/fp2p/waiting-for-superman-in-lahore-do-poor-people-need-private-schools-guest-post-by-justin-sandefur/#comment-3932</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John McLaverty]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jul 2012 12:34:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.oxfamblogs.org/fp2p/?p=11047#comment-3932</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It&#039;s the same old argument peddled over and over again by apologists for neo-liberalism. Roll back the state so far that it lacks the resources to provide essential services at even a rudimentary level. Next promote the private sector as the saviour of the poor. There&#039;s no dispute that school quality is a key issue for all concerned about education. However surely this concern points towards strengthening and supporting the public sector. The world is full enough already of rent seeking private sector providers looking to turn a profit at the expense of the poor.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s the same old argument peddled over and over again by apologists for neo-liberalism. Roll back the state so far that it lacks the resources to provide essential services at even a rudimentary level. Next promote the private sector as the saviour of the poor. There&#8217;s no dispute that school quality is a key issue for all concerned about education. However surely this concern points towards strengthening and supporting the public sector. The world is full enough already of rent seeking private sector providers looking to turn a profit at the expense of the poor.</p>
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		<title>By: ken</title>
		<link>https://oxfamblogs.org/fp2p/waiting-for-superman-in-lahore-do-poor-people-need-private-schools-guest-post-by-justin-sandefur/#comment-3931</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ken]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jul 2012 10:46:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.oxfamblogs.org/fp2p/?p=11047#comment-3931</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Justin -- Beyond disputing the results, what are the specific factors and mechanisms (curriculum, management, hours, salaries, school-family ineractions, etc) that presumably allow private schools to perform better? I&#039;m not expert in this area and have not read all the linked papers, but would like to know. The reason is that if we accept the statistical results about private schools&#039; better performance, the question I ask myself (perhaps one you&#039;ve already answered) is whether the success is scale-able or, in contrast, if private schooling were to grow and become dominant it wouldn&#039;t become subject to issues that negatively affect state schools?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Justin &#8212; Beyond disputing the results, what are the specific factors and mechanisms (curriculum, management, hours, salaries, school-family ineractions, etc) that presumably allow private schools to perform better? I&#8217;m not expert in this area and have not read all the linked papers, but would like to know. The reason is that if we accept the statistical results about private schools&#8217; better performance, the question I ask myself (perhaps one you&#8217;ve already answered) is whether the success is scale-able or, in contrast, if private schooling were to grow and become dominant it wouldn&#8217;t become subject to issues that negatively affect state schools?</p>
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		<title>By: Gaddeswarup</title>
		<link>https://oxfamblogs.org/fp2p/waiting-for-superman-in-lahore-do-poor-people-need-private-schools-guest-post-by-justin-sandefur/#comment-3930</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Gaddeswarup]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jul 2012 00:14:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.oxfamblogs.org/fp2p/?p=11047#comment-3930</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I wonder whether this discussion about private vs public takes focus away from how good the current educational system is. I and my father have been in the educational field, I was dissatisfied with university courses and dropped out a couple of times. But then ended up with a Ph. D. and teaching some of the same meaningless courses that I protested against. I feel that every level from primary to university levels one has to think of different ways of teaching as well as curriculum. I do not think that one hat fits all. Different sort of combinations from Sugata Mitra type experiments to Khan Academy-Stanford type.. have to be tried and experimented with. Different combinations may suit different students. Just promoting private education may just peetuate many of the problems in public education.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder whether this discussion about private vs public takes focus away from how good the current educational system is. I and my father have been in the educational field, I was dissatisfied with university courses and dropped out a couple of times. But then ended up with a Ph. D. and teaching some of the same meaningless courses that I protested against. I feel that every level from primary to university levels one has to think of different ways of teaching as well as curriculum. I do not think that one hat fits all. Different sort of combinations from Sugata Mitra type experiments to Khan Academy-Stanford type.. have to be tried and experimented with. Different combinations may suit different students. Just promoting private education may just peetuate many of the problems in public education.</p>
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